Women's interest in Netorare/Netori
|#1 by entra|
2018-12-30 at 19:41
|Fanza published a report with various data collected from visitors to the doujin site over the year. Along with some fun numbers they published the top keywords popularity broken down by age and gender. |
The combined Netori/Netorare tag topped the rankings for all ages, genders and locations. This piqued my curiosity as I'd not seen anything from those genres obviously aimed at women. The combined tag makes it harder to understand as they are literal opposites (though as they point out, it's all a matter of perspective). Which brings me to some questions:
- Are they really popular with women? It looks like they used Google Analytics to determine gender, maybe it's not accurate for this sort of site?
- Do women enjoy the games aimed at men in these genres?
- Which perspective do women enjoy taking in these genres? I'd love to read something with a female protagonist taking another women's man.
- What sort of stuff aimed at women with Netorare/Netori exist? There are a few Otome and BL/Yaoi VNs tagged here so it can't be completely void. Is it more popular in other media?
P.S. The other report for the main DMM site is also worth a look if you find this sort of data interesting
Edit: Clarified second questionLast modified on 2018-12-30 at 21:49
|#2 by seniorblitz|
2018-12-30 at 20:18
|Question 2 is pretty obvious tbh, I have some female friends that enjoy galges and other 'Male oriented' media, same applies to Males that enjoy BL/Otome. Could try to type a response to the other questions but since I dislike to type long replies on phone I won't, also, other users Will probably have better answers overall.Last modified on 2018-12-30 at 20:19|
|#3 by lunaterra|
2018-12-30 at 21:22
|> Are they really popular with women?|
This is the first time I've heard of NTR/netori being popular with women. There are very few female-oriented works that include those as elements. Most people I've met prefer not to have adultery/cheating be an element in stories at all. (It's not a VN, but Mass Effect 3 had one of the male love interests from the previous game cheat on Shepard and get another girl pregnant, and people were PISSED.)
> Do women enjoy the games aimed at men?
Sometimes. It depends on the woman and the VN. A straight woman is unlikely to find much enjoyment in a random male-oriented nukige, but might enjoy FSN or the Muv-Luv series for the story.
Speaking as a bi woman, most male-oriented stuff doesn't hold much appeal to me. I'm not opposed to it or anything, I just have a harder time relating to stuff that's obviously aimed at men, even if there are cute girls involved (and I do like me some cute girls). I'll still read galge if they have an interesting story, though.
> Which perspective do women enjoy taking in these genres? I'd love to read something with a female protagonist taking another women's man.
Again, it depends on the woman.
There was a giant survey of otome fans done not too long ago, looking for their preferences in a bunch of stuff. One of the questions that was asked was whether or not they self-inserted.
25.8% Only when the MC can be customized
(Of course, since this is an English-language survey, it's not representative of Japanese fans, but it might still be interesting.)
I personally never self-insert at all--I view a VN's protagonist as their own character, and the story is theirs, not mine. I probably wouldn't be very interested in a story where a female MC "steals" another woman's man. Maybe someone who self-inserts might be interested in that, but also maybe not.
> What sort of stuff aimed at women with Netorare/Netori exist? There are a few Otome and BL/Yaoi VNs tagged here so it can't be completely void. Is it more popular in other media?
(Note: I realized after writing the following two paragraphs that netori and reverse NTR aren't the same thing, but I don't want to delete them, so here's some examples of reverse NTR in otome games.)
Ozmafia!! has a mechanic where it's possible to switch to another guy's route after locking into one of the main guy's routes. The game itself has a pretty mixed reception among English-speaking otome fans, but most people I've spoken to are neutral or negative on the "cheating" mechanic.
There are also a handful of "MC stuck in an unsatisfying relationship falls in love with another man" otome games out there, like Haitoku Kobamenai Yoru and Kon'ya Anata to Nemuritai. The latter is pretty popular among mobage players (though not as popular as other Voltage titles); the former has a bad reputation for reasons largely unrelated to its premise. In this case, the appeal isn't (necessarily) the cheating itself, but rather the struggle to get a happily ever after (either by finding a better partner or by repairing the relationship with the existing BF/fiance/husband).
I can't speak for other media. Women with cuckqueaning fetishes seem to be less common than men with cuckolding fetishes, but I don't know whether that's literally because there are fewer cuckqueans than cuckolds or women are just less likely to talk about cuckqueaning or seek out cuckquean/NTR media.
Male Homosexual NTR exists as a tag, but I don't know anything about any of the VNs with that tag except Hadaka Shitsuji (a friend of mine read that one and shared screenshots and, uh, let's just say you're not playing it for the NTR).
|#4 by komocakeps|
2018-12-30 at 21:43
|tl;dr coming from someone with a mgtow perspective, I'd say women are interested in monkey branching as long as their sexual marketplace value will allow them to.|
all women have what we call the hypergamy instinct. hypergamy is women's instinct to find the best protector and provider possible for her and her kids. by itself, this instinct isn't inherently evil. afterall, don't you want the best for your offspring?
the problem only becomes apparent when it goes out of control. as everyone here should know, you can only date a woman from 18 and up (it's illegal otherwise). as soon as she becomes 18, she's easily a 10/10 and she can get the multi-millionaire guy that will tickle her hypergamy. the bottom 90% feeders men are either left with the 30s women leftovers or they'll just fap to hentai and VNs and such.
if only the problem ends there, but it's not. your typical 18 girl is more than likely currently going to college, to have that career and to have that dream job and that dream house and dream car, further delaying her time to settle down. and as her sexual marketplace value drops and men would one day no longer find her attractive, she'll complain to social media about "where have all the good men have gone" and blame the patriarchy.
no doubt that white fertility rates are dying as. women delay their time to settle down and have kids while she pursues that career. empowering women lowers fertility rate.
|#5 by entra|
2018-12-30 at 21:58
|#2: Sorry, I meant specifically these genres. Mainly since based on the perspective you take you can get a very different experience out of them and I wasn't sure what the attraction was for women.|
#3: Thanks for the comprehensive reply. It was surprising to me too; I've seen some Yuri NTR but never anything aimed at straight women. The self-insert poll is particularly interesting and makes me wonder what other fandoms would be like :)
|#6 by lunaterra|
2018-12-30 at 22:14
|Reading #4 makes me thankful that I like women.|
Anyway, this was intriguing me too, so I posted a poll on r/otomegames asking if otome fans would be interested in reading otoge that involve different types of cheating (though I included consensual cuckqueaning as well just because). I might post it around other otome spaces later too. I'll report back if I get decent results.
|#7 by komocakeps|
2018-12-30 at 22:22
|#6 uhh, I don't "hate" women. that's silly. you can't hate something you understand.|
|#8 by pabloc|
2018-12-30 at 22:29
|@4 Let's not bring random real life BS here for no reason, okay? It's not even all that related to the topic... -.-'|
That aside, I know that a lot of women like rape~y porn, but I never expected that they'd be into NTR. Heck, I didn't expect NTR to win among male demographic either. And among all age groups...? Wait, wasn't it supposed to be one of the most controversial fetishes out there?
Those are some really questionable results. If there was such a huge demand for that particular fetish, it should be more common among otome games and Yaoi. You can find a fuckton of rape in those genres, but NTR is extremely rare. And I did look for it... For Academic Purposes obviously. ^^
Hmm, maybe the results were manipulated by Russian bots or something? They did mention Russia there. Coincidence? I don't think so. XD
|#9 by komocakeps|
2018-12-30 at 22:37
Let's not bring random real life BS here for no reason, okay? It's not even all that related to the topic... -.-'
we're talking of REAL women here right? not fictional 2d waifus?
If there was such a huge demand for that particular fetish, it should be more common among otome games and Yaoi.
or maybe because moeges are getting more and more generic. and that good writing has shifted towards NTR.
everything requires good writing. a bad NTR game published in the era of good moeges may easily be misinterpreted as not having market for that.
|#10 by ramaladni|
2018-12-31 at 02:07
|I don't know what you guys are talking about, all the soap opera and kdramas I watch are filled with cheating.|
|#11 by minah|
2018-12-31 at 02:26
|The only BL games with netorare I'm familiar with are Hadaka Shitsuji (which basically just throws every fetish at the wall to see if it sticks) and Lamento -Beyond the Void- (very minor, specifically, a bad end where the protagonist is raped by the villain while his lover is forced to watch) -- and now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that spoilered type of scene is more common and just isn't tagged.|
|#12 by behappyeveryday|
2018-12-31 at 14:49
|First of all humans are not monogamous by default netorare/netori is actually about our real reproductive strategy. When women not restricted by society they will try to fuck men they consider cool and somehow "out of their league" (alphas) who don't want commit to them , but have good genes (good looking, confident, popular, charismatic, etc), while having good nice husband (beta) who will take care about kids and her, provide resources. Don't forget what DNA-tests were created very recently. So it is understandable what some women would enjoy standard NTR-games - because it is what most of them unconsciously want. Cheating is one of the strongest turn on for people if we talk about "circumstances fetish", also most ntr games have female perspective as well. |
@8 Well, netorare thread is most popular one on anime-sharing, also cheating is very common thing in any porn overall. There "cheating" tag in almost half of JAV - it is either wife cheats on her husband, or busty aunt fucks her niece, etc. I'm not sure what this research is only about games. Also netorare is popular because it is so called "hardcore" tag - it means people who are into it not really interested in other fetishes too much. Most people just don't care about any specific genre and fap on anything, so they wouldn't try to find specific fetish or if they try then they wouldn't concentrate on one specific and google different tags. Someone who is into ntr less likely to search for any other key word.Last modified on 2018-12-31 at 14:59
|#13 by seniorblitz|
2018-12-31 at 15:36
|Why I'm not suprised this thread derailed into 'woman's hidden instincts' and 'beta/Alpha male', like OP If you reading this I'd recommend you take this topic to somewhere that isn't here, you're not gonna get satisfying answers.|
|#14 by bobjr2000|
2018-12-31 at 16:08
|I agree with senior, great place to get quick info on vn. Not as much for some topics, get some pretty stupid replies.|
|#15 by behappyeveryday|
2018-12-31 at 19:31
|@13 Human reproductive strategy is serial monogamy mixed with partial polygamy - it is a scientific fact. Alpha/beta are just words to make it easier to understand, in fact there is no actual alphas or betas among most primates (exception - gorillas), but there are people with different sexual market value. IDK if my answer is satisfying or not, but it is completely based on proven facts from evolutional biology and there is nothing closer to truth you could get. Also I don't think what there a lot of places in eng internet where OP could find people who even understand what netorare/netori is.|
p.s. Also there is nothing hidden in instincts, by statistics more than half married women cheated on their husband at least once.Last modified on 2018-12-31 at 19:38
|#17 by seniorblitz|
2018-12-31 at 20:55
|The thing is, It still feels like yours and #4 comments came directly out of r/The Red Pill, which isn't exactly the most pleaseant thing considering that place got quarantined, also while I'm not female, I certainly wouldn't feel flattered with statements like 'When women not restricted by society they will try to fuck men they consider cool and somehow "out of their league" ', why do you think Lunaterra reacted like that?Last modified on 2018-12-31 at 20:56|
|#18 by toru-ben|
2018-12-31 at 21:13
|Because nobody on this site can actually talk about VNs, derailing threads instead.|
|#19 by butterflygrrl|
2019-01-01 at 13:12
|A lot of women cheat. A lot of men cheat. People are human, men and women aren't that different from each other, believing otherwise is silly. Believing ANYTHING to be true of "all women" or "all men" is silly.|
Now to get to the question at hand!
I'm not familiar with how NTR operates in games, I haven't played any games with that as an element. I have seen it in live-action porn and hentai doujinshi though.
From that, here are MY THEORIES about why some women might say they enjoy NTR. These are THEORIES. These are NOT proven facts. Okay?
1: NTR porn more commonly features the woman's pleasure. Part of what humiliates the guy is that the girl is really into the sex, right? She's turned on by this guy who is so much better than him, right? In order to show that, we have to show the woman really getting into it, unlike a lot of H where the woman is not enjoying it or not focused on.
2: NTR porn more commonly shows BOTH partners in the sex scene. 'Standard' male oriented H scenes, you can't see the male, just the woman and maybe a bit of penis. But since the fetish here involves watching someone else have sex with 'your' girl, both partners may be visible. Women may appreciate the sex scenes more if they can see both the girl and the guy.
3: A lot of porn is about exploring fantasies you would never do in real life, right? Rape fantasies are common in that. Women don't REALLY want to be raped, but many of them love fantasizing about this perfect scenario where everything goes right and is super-kinky. So in the same way, a lot of women don't really want to cheat, but they've thought about it, and here's a way to play with that idea a little. And sometimes people who're horrified by the notion are even more curious (the same way some people are turned on by porn of things they're really afraid of, like spiders or something).
4: Revenge fantasy. This is a live-action porn thing, I've never seen it in hentai. But in real porn, there's a thing where the girlfriend discovers that her boyfriend has done something bad, and in order to punish him, ties him up and makes him watch her having sex with someone else. Considering how many women use social media to try and rub 'LOOK HOW MUCH BETTER MY NEW MAN IS' in the face of their exes, I can see this being an appealing scenario to a certain kind of woman.
5: Some women really are turned on by men fighting over them, so being 'stolen' from a weaker man and 'claimed' by a stronger one would be their kink.
6: NTR scenarios are more likely to involve adult characters. People looking for adult characters because they're sick of first-school-love might end up falling into NTR by accident.
However in otome communities the loudest voices I see are usually people who are SO anti-cheating that they have problems even playing the same game multiple times to get different routes because that feels like cheating on their previous boyfriend.Last modified on 2019-01-01 at 13:13
|#20 by seniorblitz|
2019-01-01 at 15:17
|>A lot of women cheat. A lot of men cheat. People are human, men and women aren't that different from each other, believing otherwise is silly. Believing ANYTHING to be true of "all women" or "all men" is silly.|
Thank you for being reasonable and for adding interesting ideas to the thread.
|#21 by bobjr2000|
2019-01-02 at 01:14
|#19 The last one sounds hilarious people won't play a game again which is one of major reason I do play vn and not kinetic novels, I want options.|
Also for 2 reason that does really bother me. Why games feel need to make male characters like some floating magical ghost that is having sex. I know some people don't want to see naked guy but only seeing a floating penis is just annoying with no face.
|#22 by seniorblitz|
2019-01-02 at 03:17
|#21 Guess floating members helps with self-insertion, like the person feels like It is their penis is actually there, lol IDK, can agree that is very annoying.|
|#23 by conduit|
2019-01-02 at 05:26
|You guys never watched a soap opera? Those things are pretty much cheating and characters stealing other characters' SO from each other 24/7. Ofcourse girls love that NTR stuff, it makes for great (/s) TV drama.Last modified on 2019-01-02 at 11:20|
|#24 by bobjr2000|
2019-01-05 at 02:04
|I can agree people love drama on tv but real life when it comes to cheating and over top soap operas are not nearly as fun as it looks when living it. I think talked about it on another forum talking about sex vs watching sex is still seen as different. |
I think most people can go along with the drama aspect of story but when watching actual whoopee isn't a big driving point for core audience for soap operas. In contrast 90% of getting jollies on is what matters to me vs 10% story :)
|#25 by sakurakoi|
2019-01-05 at 05:07
|The only way one can imagine females to enjoy NTR/Netori if they actually enjoy the latter (steal from someone), engage in the prior (find a better mate) or watch it as third party (Schadenfreude). In contrary to males, being subject of NTR at most verifies that their chosen male was a good choice.... but in return means that they are themselves are not that appealing. Males rather are like "at least I have a warm hole, some times/non-zero chance to breed successfully".|
For males enjoying it, NTR is a desperation genre, a coping mechanism, the total opposite of the supposed "a thinking men's fetish". It is a symptom of our time where females sure do have all 'em resources, tools and rights at their disposal to be clearly the one who decides who can breed and who can not. For the very same reason pr0n&prostitution is so much more popular and high profile, for males a duck comes with much higher cost and risk which for more and more becomes "not worth it".
Rather than girl on the internet (in the '90s) being a surreal, a real female who enjoys being cheated on is a myth.
I think talked about it on another forum talking about sex vs watching sex is still seen as different.Well, and it always will be seen as different because it is. It is voyeurism, ain't no one imagine to be a mass of tentacles or a slime after... nvm, few many do but the primary factor which makes it so exciting is to see a female "in heat" (sexually corrupted, get what she deserves or whatever).
Both Visual Novels and "normal" novels by the by are much less voyeuristic than other media, especially the priors, which this db is about, is much more often than not written and shown in first person hence the utter and obvious lack of works which have the simple scenario of "my BF/husband cheats on me".
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