Title

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#1 by rampaa
2019-02-10 at 22:57
I have two questions regarding the title.

First off, shouldn't "original title" be "サノバウィッチ Sabbat of the Witch"? Because we can clearly see the "Sabbat of the Witch" in the cover photo and in here and here. So why are we ditching the English part? We sure didn't ditch the French part from link 's orginal title.

Second off, shouldn't "サノバウィッチ" be romanized as "Son of a Witch"? Isn't that the intended effect here or am I getting something wrong? See: link

While I am at it, here's an extra question regarding a different title: Its "original title" is "グリザイアの果実 -LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA-" but its "title" is "Grisaia no Kajitsu" instead of being "Grisaia no Kajitsu -Le Fruit De La Grisaia-", why is that? Is there a concrete reason for us to ditch the French part from the "title"?Last modified on 2019-02-10 at 23:05
#2 by yanaryun
2019-02-11 at 08:39
I am a Japanese living in Japan.
I have never seen this product being written as "サノバウィッチ Sabbat of the Witch".
The phrase "Sabbat of the Witch", as exemplified by you, is used only as part of the image such as logo.
On other pages of Yuzu Soft, it is written simply as "サノバウィッチ". For example,
Products page: link
Blog: link
It's also same at shop's websites such as Getchu.com and DMM, etc.

As far as Romanization is concerned, I think "sanoba wicchi" is appropriate.
However, I am wondering if this romanization is useful for non-Japanese people.

As for the product name of the Grisaia series, the notation of the French part is often omitted.
In the conversation, the French part is ignored.
Maybe, the reason why French is omitted is because French is a minor language in Japan compared to English.

What I want you to know is that the shaking of notation is not unusual.

I hope this post will help this discussion.Last modified on 2019-02-11 at 10:11
#3 by surferdude
2019-02-11 at 14:09
Sorry, but there's no way that "wicchi" is the correct romanization.
#4 by rampaa
2019-02-11 at 15:37
#2
I have never seen this product being written as "サノバウィッチ Sabbat of the Witch".
I've literally given a link where it's written exactly like that though. Also from Yuzusoft's website: link and link

As far as Romanization is concerned, I think "sanoba wicchi" is appropriate.
Why? Can you give your reasoning for it? I think according to the current guidelines it should be "Son of a Witch". Here's the related bit from the guidelines:

For English (or other foreign) words in a non-roman script, the original word should be used as long as it is the intended effect.


As for the product name of the Grisaia series, the notation of the French part is often omitted.
In the conversation, the French part is ignored.
Maybe, the reason why French is omitted is because French is a minor language in Japan compared to English.
That sounds too arbitrary. Is there anything in the guidelines that backs up the decision to ditch the French part from the title?Last modified on 2019-02-11 at 16:12
#5 by beliar
2019-02-11 at 16:34
Yunaryun' arguments regarding the romanization can be rejected immediately and he provided no sound arguments regarding the French subtitle.

Now is my take on that. I see no reason why the subtitle had been dropped from the Grisaia no Kajitsu entry (and the other titles in the series), with the most likely explanation being "inertia". The original editor didn't add the subtitle and all the following ones never bothered to correct him, especially after the series expanded and it would have taken more work to correct all the main entries and releases. That seems to be the most likely case. Going by what we usually do in such cases, it seems to me the French subtitle surely should be part of the title, unless I'm missing something. I admit I don't know enough about the series, but going by previous examples like France Shoujo ~Une fille blanche~, the current title should be updated.

I know nothing about "Sabbat of the Witch", so I'm loath to weigh on that issue.
#6 by rampaa
2019-02-11 at 16:49
#5 Here's a minor spoiler about "サノバウィッチ": Protagonist's mother was a witch when she was alive. So protagonist *is* a "Son of a Witch". So it's not something random either.
#7 by eacil
2019-02-11 at 19:58
According to vndb's rules, he is right about Son of a Witch. サノバビッチ is one way of writing "son of a bitch" according to jisho, and like Rampaa said: it's the intended effect.
#8 by yanaryun
2019-02-11 at 20:28
At first, I apologize about my lack of understanding of the romanization notation rule at VNDB.
However, I also want you to know that it is not easy for Japanese people to make katakanaized English words the original spelling.

Rampaa gives an example of the entry of Wikipedia, but according to the search result on Google, the accompanying note of "Sabbat of The Witch" is not common.

サノバウィッチ "Sabbat of The Witch" - about 39,000 results
サノバウィッチ -"Sabbat of The Witch" - about 984,000 results

Of course, since VNDB is not ErogameScape, I think that the notation in VNDB should be decided by the rules of VNDB.

About official notation of Grisaia series contains subtitles in French.
But a notation of French often omitted except for the case which accurate product name is needed.
As same as Sanoba Witch, I think the notation at VNDB should be decided with the rule of VNDB.
#9 by rampaa
2019-02-11 at 20:42
#8 Like I said, "Sabbat of The Witch" part can be found on the cover photo and in the Wikipedia article I've given and link and link

I believe ignoring it just because it's omitted from time to time is a bad decision. Same goes for Grisaia series.

Also let me try to show you that those numbers don't mean much:

"グリザイアの果実 -LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA-" ->About 42,600 results.
"グリザイアの果実" -> About 2,010,000 results.

The difference is way bigger than the example you gave. But does it matter at the end? No. グリザイアの果実 -LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA- is still the original title. Same should be the case for "サノバウィッチ Sabbat of The Witch".Last modified on 2019-02-11 at 21:13
#10 by yanaryun
2019-02-11 at 21:27
The official product name of "サノバウィッチ" is "サノバウィッチ", even if "Sabbat of The Witch" is attached to the logo image, that fact will not change.
You can confirm this fact at the products page on official site. I have already shown the links at #2.
I will not discuss any more the official product name of the Japanese version.

Regarding Grisaia's fruit, the official product name is "グリザイアの果実 -LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA-".
If you are a Japanese fundamentalist, "Grisaia no kajitsu" and "Grisaia no kajitsu - LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA -" are both inaccuracy.
If you think that it is inconsistent with other entries, you can discuss UNOFFICIAL romaji notation in the entry "グリザイアの果実 -LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA-".Last modified on 2019-02-11 at 21:31
#11 by rampaa
2019-02-11 at 21:41
#10 Guess what? Cover photos also come from the developers themselves. Such a shocker, I am sure. You are willfully ignoring everything that is inconvenient for your argument. I've given links from Yuzusoft's official website as well that demonstrate that they use it as a part of the game's name at #4 and #9. But I guess we ought to ignore everything because you say so.

Pray tell though, if it's not a part of the game's name, then what is it? It's not a romanization attempt neither is it the translation of the title. So what do you think it's there for exactly?

I am not even sure what you are trying to say with that "Japanese fundamentalist" nonsense.Last modified on 2019-02-11 at 21:48
#12 by chuee
2019-02-11 at 21:52
All you're doing is posting images of the logo. By that same vein, Noble Works should be のーぶる☆わーくす Noble Works and Dracu Riot should be ドラクリオット Dracu-Riot
#13 by rampaa
2019-02-11 at 22:00
#12 ドラクリオット is there to let Japanese people know how to pronounce Dracu-Riot. Noble Works is the romanization of のーぶるわーくす. Can you point out the relation between サノバウィッチ and Sabbat of the Witch, pretty please?Last modified on 2019-02-11 at 22:01
#14 by sakurakoi
2019-02-11 at 22:37
Is the concept of sub-titles really that complex?

If the developer leaves out a part of the supposed title in their descriptions i.e not cover logo, product name on website or first mentions, those tend to contain sub-titles, then that part is indeed the sub-title. If left out on any of the stuff named, then it should be fairly obvious even, yes?

Unless that is, the title is actually shortened to an alias, which presents another case. Then it is quite likely part of the title due to the fact that many works do not have a sub-title and small alias/acronym. Title without sub-title is usually the handle-name then.


In short, all one needs to do to make their argument sound is to find an official description or product page (mind you, not technical URL which are obviously shortened) and find the supposed sub-title or the lack thereof where it should or should not be. In this case, Sabbath of the Witch is obviously the sub-title... linked product pages themselves all lack the Sabbath and the same store (DMM) also names Kajitsu without french. Heck, the only le I found on the site was in Waffle.

Whether now vndb includes sub-titles in the title, original title or alias, that can be argued... or rather just clarified by yorhel, it should merely be consistent and added to d2. Personally, or rather, from my view point which favors search-ability, it should obviously be included somewhere. I'd personally say title only when it needs to be romanized and always original title. This should make it the most clear and merely the rules would need to say that explicitly. But I suppose the concept and ability to discern sub-titles will be deemed to complex and the cause of edit wars~
#15 by rampaa
2019-02-11 at 23:13
#14 Fair enough.

Searching for "Sabbat of the Witch" site:"yuzu-soft.com" gives zero results. So there's no searchable text in Yuzusoft's website that includes "Sabbat of the Witch". Of course, it's in the cover photo, logo and Wikipedia article I've given before. But I guess we don't count the logo/cover photo and the latter is not an official source.

A similar case is also true for Grisaia though. Searching for "LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA" site:"frontwing.jp" gives 2 results. One of which is a PDF and the other one redirects to a different website. The PDF ( link ) has the "-Le Labyrinthe de la GRISAIA" as a searchable text (but not "LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA") in it but it's not used in a description or anything. So does this mean it shouldn't be a part of the original title (of the 3rd game) because it's a sub-title? Or is the presence of this PDF enough for us to say it's not a sub-title?

In any case, I guess Yorhel and/or Beliar should clear where "sub-title"s go.Last modified on 2019-02-11 at 23:39
#16 by beliar
2019-02-12 at 16:33
Okay, listen, the most important clarifier to me regarding the game title is what is written on the DVD case and what is shown on the screen once you launch the game.

Regarding Grisaia no Kajitsu. The main menu shows the title and the subtitle link and the same is true with the dvd cover link, hence it seems to me LE FRUIT DE LA GRISAIA should be part of the vn title in the db and the same is true with other games in that series.

The same appears to be true with Sanoba Witch, as the title seems to be サノバウィッチ Sabbat of the Witch both on the cover and on the game screen link.

In essence I really see no problem with changing the titles to reflect that, as it would be more consistent with other titles in the db. Moreover, it would make clear that MangaGame decided to use the subtitle, instead of the main title, for the game.

As for why the game title is romanized as "Sanoba Witch" instead of "Son of a Witch"... I have no idea. The fact the title is in katakana would indicate it's supposed to represent a foreign or made-up phrase and "Son of a Witch" seems like the obvious one, unless I'm really missing something. Also, looking at the url link, the "sothewitch" contraction once again seems to indicate that "Son of a Witch" was always the intended effect. I have no idea who first started to use "Sanoba", but that just doesn't seem correct...
#17 by sakurakoi
2019-02-12 at 17:31
the "sothewitch" contraction once again seems to indicate that "Son of a Witch" was always the intended effect
shouldn't the link be soawitch then ? Or the title be son of the witch?
Seriously, Yuzusoft is making a pun, get it or do not.

Now the main concern suddenly rather is where "Sanoba", the literal reading, came from and it'd be best to ask ds1150 who appears to be an experienced user (making a mistake unlikely, still possible but more unlikely, although... the sub-title was alias first) however they appear to be inactive since a year. According to vndb they named it "Sanoba" (unless name changes are lost in history) ~3 months before release which should be a fair lead.

Okay, listen, the most important clarifier to me regarding the game title is what is written on the DVD case and what is shown on the screen once you launch the game.
Beware, since that'd mean that other Yuzu titles (i.e Dracu-Riot and Noble Works) would then need to have their titles changed as well, to entail their titles in a different script.

as it would be more consistent with other titles in the db.
it'd be neater if you could make it consistent with or rather clear in the rules, that title entail sub-titles as well... which of course are not just the title in a different script.
#18 by dk382
2019-02-13 at 01:24
I'm against relying on logos to divine titles. Logos can contain anything. Covers and title screens often contain all sorts of irrelevant text. Saying "this text is in the logo" means nothing to me. Yes, "Sabbat of the Witch" appears in the game's main menu because it's part of the logo. That still doesn't mean it's officially a part of the title. All places where Yuzusoft themselves mention the game in text is done without the "Sabbat of the Witch" part.

Regarding "Sanoba" vs "Son of a," consider that the phrase the title puns on, サノバビッチ, is actually shorthand for サンオブアビッチ, which is the full Japanese way to write "son of a bitch" (and is also found more commonly in writing). This makes the romanization less cut and dry. An equivalent shorthand way to write that would be something like "sonovabitch," though that's not commonly used at all. Since we're entering into english slang territory and interpreting japanese shorthand into english shorthand, you might begin to see why ds1150 decided to go with "Sanoba Witch." Should we extend the rules on romanizing loanwords into finding equivalent English shorthand words for Japanese ones? Should we just go with the long-form English version? Or stick with the Japanese? These are the questions that should be asked. In my opinion, it might be reasonable to go with "Sonovawitch" if you're gonna make a change at all, but I don't know how people feel about that.
#19 by eacil
2019-02-13 at 02:02
I agree with dk382 both for the logo thing and for the Sonova/Son_of_the dilemma. I almost edited the title but didn't because I didn't know what to chose between the slang and the properly pronounced expression (and not between keeping Sanoba or choose Son_of_the; it would have made sense to keep Sanoba if it was referring to something inside the VN's universe). サノバ is a perfect match with Sonova and it seems to match the VN's comical spirit, right?

Btw, sothewitch > s o the witch > sabbat of the witch, not son of the witch.
#20 by rampaa
2019-02-13 at 02:10
If we are going to say サノバ = Sanoba/Sonova then I guess we will have to change Son of a ☆ Bitch ~Saotome Nobara-chan, Maji Bitch!~ into "Sanoba/Sonova ☆ Bitch ~Saotome Nobara-chan, Maji Bitch!~" as well.Last modified on 2019-02-13 at 03:43
#21 by rampaa
2019-02-13 at 02:24
#18 パソコン is also a shorthand for パーソナルコンピュータ. But AniDB, whose romanization guidelines VNDB borrows, treats パソコン as it would treat パーソナルコンピュータ and romanizes it as Personal Computer instead of "Pasokon" or PC. See: linkLast modified on 2019-02-13 at 02:27
#22 by rampaa
2019-02-14 at 19:21
So, ugh, what is the final verdict?
#23 by chuee
2019-02-14 at 20:20
Why was this changed to Sonuvawitch? I've literally never heard a single person refer to the game as that in English. Googling sonuvawitch visual novel gives you steins;gate results. I'm pretty sure using the name it's been called for 5 years is more important than being a stickler when it comes to romanization
#24 by rampaa
2019-02-14 at 20:38
I'm pretty sure using the name it's been called for 5 years is more important than being a stickler when it comes to romanization
No, it is not. DB romanization rules trump nearly everything else.

I am not sure why @Eacil changed it into Sonuvawitch though. It should have been "Son of a Witch", not "Sonuvawitch". See #21.Last modified on 2019-02-14 at 20:39
#25 by beliar
2019-02-14 at 20:39
Ugh... I'm not sure that changing the title to Sonovawitch is the best decision. Actually, I feel it's a pretty really terrible decision. If we cannot agree to name the title "Son of a Witch" than I believe we should leave it a literal Sanoba Witch. No one has heard Sonovawitch before and interpreting the title in such a way creates a bad precedent that we should translate Japanese slang into an equivalent English one... which is surely gonna result into some very hilarious interpretations. At the very least I think that a reasonable compromise would be "Sonova Witch".

No, it is not. DB romanization rules trump nearly everything else.
Truth be told, the title doesn't really subscribe to any of our rules in a hard way and that's why we are having this discussion in the first place.Last modified on 2019-02-14 at 20:42

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