Feature request: Add "Engine" field to releases

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#1 by scorp
2015-11-10 at 11:05
Seems this is again to Yorhel :)

This would be extremely useful, due to lot of people nowadays getting Android tablets/phones, and things like Kirikiroid2 (all Kirikiri2/KAG games interpreter - lot of novels use that), rlvm (RealLive - Key games engine), Ren'py (well, it somehow have its own tag, but this is wrong, as different releases of same game could have different engines), nScripter (another free engine, which have tons of games).

So, could you please add that field? By me not a big problem (well, as I do not saw the code, could be a bit of copy-paste). Just to be useful it should be also searchable.Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 11:08
#2 by yorhel
2015-11-10 at 11:19
I'll consider it, but some concerns:

The classic problem: What kind of options should the field have? A static list of possible engines (like we now have for platforms)? A tag-like system where mods can add engines? Or a free-form field where everyone can type whatever they want?

In case of a predefined list, which engines should be considered for inclusion? How detailed are we going to be with that list of engines? Detailed version numbers seem excessive, but are major customizations/forks a different engine? Major version numbers seem useful at least, otherwise you still know nothing about compatibility. Many games use heavily customized engines, and may not be supported by those emulators you mention. Is it still useful to list the engine in that case?
#3 by scorp
2015-11-10 at 11:27
I was thinking about free form field with auto-complete, as that's the easiest thing to do. But, if do it normally, best would be tag-like system, as for sure you would not be able to list ALL possible engines (as even now I think someone is writing new engine :)).

About version - I think precise number is not always needed (and not always possible to find out), as if user is really want to give it a try - he will use tools, which would tell, what precise version of format was used.

But format version is sometimes useful, if you would use it for extract matters, but not really useful for search.

So I think best would be to introduce two fields: 1. Tag-link for engine and 2. Free text for engine version (if known/applicable).Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 11:29
#4 by abyssaleros
2015-11-10 at 11:28
Just a quick thought, why not combine a static list of possible engines (like for platforms) and a note field for those who care about all the problems you have mentioned?
#5 by scorp
2015-11-10 at 11:32
Static list would be bad decision. I myself know about 35+ game engines, but this is only a drop in the ocean. Also new engines got developed every day... So yorhel would have to edit that possible engine list many, many times. That's why tag-like system is better, as could be extended without direct yorhel intervention.Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 11:33
#6 by abyssaleros
2015-11-10 at 11:39
We have up to date 35 possible platforms in the static list, so I see there no problem. Problem with the tag system is this needs a mod who has some insight to engines.
And time to manage all the tag queries...Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 11:39
#7 by scorp
2015-11-10 at 12:40
Issue is not in the number of items, but in manageability. If you put them static - you cannot put more unless yorhel would do and add that, correct? So I proposed tags as a better manageable thing.

Anyway, if it is possible to limit moderation only for these releases tags, I could be able to review them. Just seems no difference, means if mod do not know, if the engine is truly exist or not - he would not be able to check, if existing engine applied correctly.
#8 by pendelhaven
2015-11-10 at 13:02
I know some people search VNs using tags, but seriously, engines?
#9 by scorp
2015-11-10 at 13:10
@pendelhaven of course, I already explained in first post. I personally had a hard time finding what else I could read on my Android using Kirikiroid2 interpreter, as actually there is quite a lot of them, but as no one mentioned engine - no way to find them. And not only me - notice tags like "RPG Maker" and "Ren'py" already existing on vndb.

Anyway, I think that if even "Story: some fully animated scenes" along with resolution exist - and someone really need to know that - then engine should be added too.Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 13:18
#10 by pendelhaven
2015-11-10 at 13:18
read on my Android

wouldn't it be better to search VNs using the platform (android) instead of engine then? or are there "hacks" of the sort that can play VNs on android after some... modding?Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 13:19
#11 by scorp
2015-11-10 at 13:25
This is not platform. And not modding. This is an interpreter. So fully implemented engine, just for android. Like this: link

So game of your choice, I dunno, lets take G-Senjou no Maou as example - was never released for Android. But with this tool you can take your game backup and play it on the go. That's the meaning of this.

Another thing is that people like me are usually curious about what engine was used to write the game and what it could do (means real live examples) - and best way to find out is to see screenshots of a dozen top-rated games, made on it and eventually trying some of them.

I can think about some more examples of how to use engine information, but it seems obvious, that engine info would be of some use.Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 13:30
#12 by pendelhaven
2015-11-10 at 14:32

An emulator for kirikiri2 to work on android huh? I bet there's lots of plugin issues. But that aside, nothing more to add then. Seems the search is useful for cases like this.Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 14:36
#13 by abyssaleros
2015-11-10 at 14:55
And not only for that, as there are VN engines out there that are notorious stubborn to cooperate with text parsers like AGTH, ITH or VNR. So all who depend on them to read, more or less, a novel have an interest in engines too.Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 14:55
#14 by venomg3
2015-11-10 at 18:05
id say freeform field in release would be the best choice,

1 use i can see me using the field for is attempting to avoid VNs that use reallive/siglus as the amount of loose files on those is annoying.
#15 by sanahtlig
2015-11-10 at 19:25
And not only for that, as there are VN engines out there that are notorious stubborn to cooperate with text parsers like AGTH, ITH or VNR. So all who depend on them to read, more or less, a novel have an interest in engines too.
This.

I also have an interest in an engine field. I think a tag system would the most flexible way to handle this. For my usage case, I would use the tag as a reference but I probably wouldn't use it as a search parameter (except maybe to exclude engines I know wouldn't hook right). Do keep in mind that a freeform text field wouldn't be searchable.Last modified on 2015-11-10 at 19:26
#16 by tyr
2015-11-10 at 19:34
So all who depend on them to read, more or less, a novel have an interest in engines too.
How about having an interesting in making custom H-Codes for yourself instead, lol? Seems more practical to me :3
#17 by nekoyasha
2015-11-11 at 02:04
I'd also personally find this field useful, but more from the aspect of reversing (e.g. looking at two or more games on the same engine can sometimes be a significant advantage over one), and I don't know how many other people would find that handy...
#18 by scorp
2015-12-05 at 12:57
@yorhel, so it seems quite useful feature. Any plans to integrate?Last modified on 2015-12-05 at 12:57
#19 by yorhel
2015-12-05 at 13:02
I don't see a concensus on my initial questions. Also, I see possible numbers of existing engines mentioned, but nobody actually came with a list. Can you list all major engines you know of?
#20 by takata
2015-12-05 at 13:06
You could always start an "Engine thread" which records which VNs run on which engines, to demonstrate how much this feature might be used.
#21 by vario
2015-12-05 at 13:17
@19 I think this one will be good enough to start with.
#22 by scorp
2015-12-05 at 22:23
@yorhel I actually proposed a solution with these two: 1. Tag-link for engine + 2. Free text for engine version (if known/applicable). Did not saw any counter-arguments against it.

Here is a few engines I remember, there is much more, especially for older engines I do not have much info. That's why static list seems a bad solution for me, as when we find a new engine - what to do? Write to you to add a new engine in the list? If this is ok - then static list could be ok too. But by me you could be overloaded with that, especially in first monthes :)

Also need someone who knows the difference between engines - in order not to put same engine on the list twice under different names, as actually we do not know exact name for 90% of the engines on the list and figure them ourselves by some inner data/text signatures.

666-SYSTEMMUTEX
5pb Engine
ADVSystem
AdvTry
AdvWin32
AI5WIN
aselia
AST
Avg32
BaldrX
BGI
BGI/Ethornell
CatSystem2
codeX RScript
DaiSystem
DenSDK
Doddler (MGPK)
Entis
FJSYS
Floating Frame Director
FS
FVP
InnocentGrey Engine
IPAC
KID Engine
Kirikiri2/KAG3
LC-ScriptEngine
LFScript
LiveMaker
Lucifen Library
Macromedia Shockwave
Majiro (V1/V2/V3)
Malie
Musica
N2System
nbook
NEJII
NekoBoard
NEKOPACK
NeXAS
NPS
NScripter
QLIE
RealLive
Regista Engine
renPy
RPGMaker
RPM ADV SYSTEM
rUGP
Shiina Rio
Stuff
Super Neko X
System 3/3.5/3.9/4.x (AliceSoft)
System-NNN
SystemC
TamoGameSystem
TeethingRing 5
Willadv
YU-RISLast modified on 2015-12-06 at 07:01
#23 by scorp
2016-05-07 at 07:09
I still want to indicate that this would be very useful for various sorts of people. It is stupid to do a separate site just for this, so want to understand, if yorhel would implement that or not.
#24 by sanahtlig
2016-05-07 at 07:21
I support scorp's proposal for a tag system combined with a free-text entry for specific engine version + compatibility. This field could also be used to list text hooker compatibility...Last modified on 2016-05-07 at 07:27
#25 by yorhel
2016-05-07 at 09:50
I actually proposed a solution with these two: 1. Tag-link for engine + 2. Free text for engine version (if known/applicable). Did not saw any counter-arguments against it.
The more I think about it, the more I think a tag-link interface for engines is far too complex to code and maintain for this feature. Unless we generalize that into a tagging system for releases that is usable for other information as well, it's not going to happen. For now I'm not convinced that we should have a generalized tagging system for releases.

Static list + free text field is fine, and I'm fine with updating the list as new engines come along (I *can* be very quick to respond to simple tasks :P). What I'm mostly worried about is the size of said list. 100 engines might just work, but putting more items in one dropdown list is not going to work well. That would need a search box or something. :-(

You could always start an "Engine thread" which records which VNs run on which engines, to demonstrate how much this feature might be used.
This... is actually the best advise if you want to kick-start anything on VNDB without getting involved in the coding yourself. That would also start the discussions on the issue of "need someone who knows the difference between engines" mentioned by scorp.

This field could also be used to list text hooker compatibility...
...
You can also put h-codes in the title field!

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